Curse

Faer · Jan 21, 2012, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I wholly support the OP's suggestion and would love it if HA play and matchmaking was based on the title rank of people joining the queue. I also don't understand why people like that asshole Lemming would be opposed to this. It'd be an amazing way for us to farm the HA chest with our alt accounts reliably and with little effort.

/signed for easy loot

gooeydark · Jan 21, 2012, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

What exactly is the help? Perhaps I missed it when the general concensus from the what? 7 people that actually play on here? Is that you want to leave HA alone, that everyone just needs to get better (read try to catch up to 6+years of grinding) or GTFO? You really are pretty blind to the actuallity of the situation. I watched a brand new person to the game who had made a character go into HA ask a simple enough question (whats my rank and how do I find it?) get trashed, told to altf4, told to go to PvE and leave HA alone, and you think you are productive members of the game? Low tier players are the VAST majority of this game, hell when you look at EVERY other format, they all Dwarf HA. Thats a good thing? Does that make it somehow better? Or special? Nope, it makes it either a waste of resources, or in need of DRASTIC repair. Frankly when you say things like this:

You look ignorant, rude, and frankly, a horrible representation of our games population. Meh, you only look worse for wear. Now either contribute to the thread ( read that as post ideas on how to FIX HA) or move along. The adults are talking here.

You'll find, that unlike the format you so want to horde, the rest of the world views that sort of response, and behavior, well, childish.

And you continue to prove my point.

Reverend Dr got it spot on. Anet will do nothing to fix HA, so it's pretty much up to the players do what they can to make the most of it.

Oh and by the way, my posts are in no way intended to "horde the format". I've stopped playing casual HA for about a year now. Stop making blind accusations.

Edit: Asking the HA districts for help is a HUGE mistake. There is no help to be had from the massive retards who troll there all day. Observer mode is your friend. And messaging people who actually make it to the Hall of Heroes and win is such a better way to get advice.

cormac ap dunn · Jan 22, 2012, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooeydark

And you continue to prove my point.

Reverend Dr got it spot on. Anet will do nothing to fix HA, so it's pretty much up to the players do what they can to make the most of it.

Oh and by the way, my posts are in no way intended to "horde the format". I've stopped playing casual HA for about a year now. Stop making blind accusations.

Edit: Asking the HA districts for help is a HUGE mistake. There is no help to be had from the massive retards who troll there all day. Observer mode is your friend. And messaging people who actually make it to the Hall of Heroes and win is such a better way to get advice.

Firstly, presuming to speak for all those responding to a thread by using the term we rather then I implies that others responding are of the exact opinion you are. Thus far you have chimed in with a few of these now. Secondly the only advice you have is ask for help... Help with what? Builds, play, getting into a group to be farmed by experienced players? Keeping HA exactly the same will keep people out until they shut the game down, save for the handful of people who still play, a wasteland. As a player who admitadly retired from HA how do you feel you have a bead on what is actually going on there?

Essence Snow · Jan 22, 2012, 02:01 AM // 02:01

He said he retired from casual HA...so that may either mean he has actually stopped playing or is one of the few guilds that holds halls for title.....either way he has 0 interest in things changing...easy title or just doesn't give a hoot. The players who continuously hold halls have nothing to gain by change thus are opposed to change.

One thing I've learned is it is pointless to debate/conversate with the type as it'll never go anywhere.

Lithril Ashwalker · Jan 22, 2012, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooeydark

And you continue to prove my point.

Reverend Dr got it spot on. Anet will do nothing to fix HA, so it's pretty much up to the players do what they can to make the most of it.

Oh and by the way, my posts are in no way intended to "horde the format". I've stopped playing casual HA for about a year now. Stop making blind accusations.

Edit: Asking the HA districts for help is a HUGE mistake. There is no help to be had from the massive retards who troll there all day. Observer mode is your friend. And messaging people who actually make it to the Hall of Heroes and win is such a better way to get advice.

1st line, ur a parrot
2nd line, u assume everyone stalks you to know you stopped playing for a year, if u stopped playing dont post. shoo, and contribute more to this thread
and 3rd line - observer mode only gets you so far and the majority of the time "winners of ha;lls" fluke it there because of the daily "no competition" / they are set to DND or offline so they dont have to do such things.

gday chap!

Fluffy Kittens · Jan 22, 2012, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithril Ashwalker

3rd line - observer mode only gets you so far and the majority of the time "winners of ha;lls" fluke it there because of the daily "no competition" / they are set to DND or offline so they dont have to do such things.

It actually does get you quite far. Having a working build very important, and most of low ranked people just bring their own useless builds which they think are good and of course, fail over and over again.
Also, I'm always ready to help people with any advices and I never ignore everyone and I'm never set on DND/offline. If you have questions just ask, there is no need to complicate things. You already have a no, so ask a question and you have a chance to get get a yes.

Missing HB · Jan 22, 2012, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

Secondly the only advice you have is ask for help... Help with what? Builds, play, getting into a group to be farmed by experienced players? Keeping HA exactly the same will keep people out until they shut the game down, save for the handful of people who still play, a wasteland. As a player who admitadly retired from HA how do you feel you have a bead on what is actually going on there?

I'm sorry to say this but that's quite a right post. People should try and play on the two sides, i myself couldn't see the point of all these complaints years ago as i was usually bothering more and winning a lot... But however, let's be honest and take the GvG example as most players posting here aren't realy HA players but GvG ones :

- how many new guilds that noone knew months before are getting good results in MAT's?( by this i mean playoffs i.e top16), i saw guilds that tried and kept getting at best 2/4 or 3/3.. Why? Because the gap between top players and new comers is too high and it's pointless, except if you dare to play hours and hours, but it's a big risk for a small chance of result...

- people might say " there is no people from low level because they don't want to try".. It's not really fun either beating syncers for +1 or either losing against the same players for -7. Add to it the fact that people cannot play if it's not european evening, that you need 8 players, thus have to expect all of them to stay, not leave soon, have dc's...

What the game lacks is :
- an easy way to practice personal skills such as monking , rupting .. , but on a 8v8 situation, not a 4v4
- an easy way to develop tactics, basic moves , etc... event games or herobattles would be good here
- a way to try out with no risk what you learnt.. That's good because there are amical fights in GvG.. oh wait..

*lemming* · Jan 22, 2012, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

Or it could be, you know, because people think they understand game balance, and proceed to complain in one thread of the problems , then in another say"don't touch it!". I know, who would do that? Complain about things like skill changes being needed, formats being dead, things like that, and when they get them complain that it isn't what they wanted? Crazy!!!... I get that the handful of "vets"(by the way, don't think we forgot that most of those vets only got past bambi by abusing the hell out of the old IWAY) would want to stay sheltered in their tiny little world of HA, but if the format changes, will they protest? HB died a slow death, sadly, and part of the reason was because a format for the masses was more a format for the few who ran the same builds , against each other endlessly. No one respected what the game was about. and when an option came along allowing for the mass exploitation of the /resign feature, enterprising, albeit wrong, PvEers took advantage. Until that point, HB hadn't seen a 10th of that many people combined since it came out. If hastening the death of HA is the thing players want, then allow it to die with dignity, not as something that the majority of the playerbase views as the dregs of the PvP world, and thats saying something if you look at RA...

You sound angry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

Oh and the rant you quoted? doesn't really make the average ranked player seem like anything more then a mere troll with a chip on their shoulder( which i belive is about as accurate a description as can be given)

What, you mean the one I linked?

Anyway, as I see it, there's two different criteria that go into selecting players for a group - performing better and social factors. Do you disagree?

For the record, Dark is r12. I'm reasonably sure that at least 90% of that was from playing with friends and their groups.

*lemming* · Jan 22, 2012, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

- how many new guilds that noone knew months before are getting good results in MAT's?( by this i mean playoffs i.e top16), i saw guilds that tried and kept getting at best 2/4 or 3/3.. Why? Because the gap between top players and new comers is too high and it's pointless, except if you dare to play hours and hours, but it's a big risk for a small chance of result...

This year? eLuv, Boo, yK, couple of those French guilds all come to mind as having made the jump from middling-level guild to at least relevance. Sure, it still took them months of playing together, but what exactly are you expecting? If completely new players were regularly in contention for championships, that might be a sign of something weird going on.

There's plenty of opportunity to get into GvG - people like Floor and Ariena work their asses off to help newcomers, there's actually guilds around an introductory level of play (more so during European hours, obviously, although there are some in America), and far more resources exist for making the jump in. It's absolutely perplexing that people are still so fixated on trying to pug HA.

papryk · Jan 22, 2012, 11:50 AM // 11:50

why Anet should care about a dead format when GW2 will be out in a few months and then HA will be really dead, empty and unplayable...or infested with syncers.

cormac ap dunn · Jan 23, 2012, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by papryk

why Anet should care about a dead format when GW2 will be out in a few months and then HA will be really dead, empty and unplayable...or infested with syncers.

Bit late for that. I think people severly underestimate the number of new players to GW1 because of the hype of GW2. Add to that, by the time GW2 comes out, you will have a throng of new players trying this game for the HoM rewards and such, the core players who will not move on to GW2, and the average person just looking for an interesting game thats new to them, not necessarily new to the world, and all of us who currently play (the devs stated early on that the storyline for GW2 will continue to be bridged with GW1, why wouldn't we pop back from time to time?) and we will still have a solid base of players. Look at the companies celebrating milestone anniversaries this year if you need proof that MMOs can go on for ages.

@ lemming, I totally agree that those are 2 factors, not the only 2 though. New players are eager just to jump right in, though at times that can be a detriment, it sure can be a help, if honed and trained. sometimes just finding the person that is willing to learn can be a great start. Sometimes however, people will defy the odds, and just be naturals. What about all those folks who get discouraged and move on, even though they exhibit an ability to perform, but due to the circumstances of HA do not pursue it? As far as GvG, its hardly a worthwhile format either. Different set of tactics, different skill requirements, and a different focus altogether.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I'm sorry to say this but that's quite a right post. People should try and play on the two sides, i myself couldn't see the point of all these complaints years ago as i was usually bothering more and winning a lot... But however, let's be honest and take the GvG example as most players posting here aren't realy HA players but GvG ones :

- how many new guilds that noone knew months before are getting good results in MAT's?( by this i mean playoffs i.e top16), i saw guilds that tried and kept getting at best 2/4 or 3/3.. Why? Because the gap between top players and new comers is too high and it's pointless, except if you dare to play hours and hours, but it's a big risk for a small chance of result...

- people might say " there is no people from low level because they don't want to try".. It's not really fun either beating syncers for +1 or either losing against the same players for -7. Add to it the fact that people cannot play if it's not european evening, that you need 8 players, thus have to expect all of them to stay, not leave soon, have dc's...

What the game lacks is :
- an easy way to practice personal skills such as monking , rupting .. , but on a 8v8 situation, not a 4v4
- an easy way to develop tactics, basic moves , etc... event games or herobattles would be good here
- a way to try out with no risk what you learnt.. That's good because there are amical fights in GvG.. oh wait..

You certainly hit the nail on the head. Probably one of the most well thought and well structured responses to this thread thus far. I think every single point you made is 100% valid. Hell, I would love if they allowed for a format to include heroes, if for nothing else , then for the tactics one learns in an 8v8 environment. I'm not saying HA is that venue however, but some better form of training and play other then the current system of "get better or leave now". GvG and HA are about as similar as PvP and PvE are to each other. And yet they suffer the same way, and all because of a gap in the ability and experience of the player base as a whole, and a lack of a true mid-ground for people to learn all they need to, to allow them to be both effective and fun to play.

Fluffy Kittens · Jan 23, 2012, 04:05 PM // 16:05

GvG and HA are actually pretty much the same. Almost the same builds are used, HA also has split maps and tactics and finally the objective is same. Kill enemy team and ghostly/guildlord

Mireles · Jan 23, 2012, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Ive seen maybes 2-3 ideas on how to fix things....

its good to see somethings in guild wars are still reliable.... "blah blah lazy pvers" . "blah blah elitism"... and the most ridiculous one "blah blah HA isn't broken its just 90% of guild wars is lazy"... that is the one that cracks me up the most... "don't you dare fix anything so i can keep stroking my ego by telling everyone else to just get better like me"

The thought there are still so many people in this game and its not the format that is broken its the people are lazy... get a clue... its a video game only people that HA are the ones that have dedicated their life to it like it was a team sport... People have jobs, lives, and play real sports already... You can't expect people to take this meaningless avenue of putting the effort in to get a pack of noobs together only to get rolled by already refined teams and call it a learning experience that makes you better in some analytical and magical way...

Just stick 7 hero parties back into HA and watch everyone that currently benefits from the closed format cry about it because anyone would have something that resembles a fair shot...

The Main Problem:

The biggest problem people have is that they can't find a team to play with, not to be confused with not being able to play....

People can't find teams as a direct result of rank discrimination... An experienced team simply won't take you period. ("elitism" problem)

New players will not form a team they don't know how to put together... It does not make much since to lead people into something they don't know... any person with a shred of intelligence knows the result and won't even bother forming a team. ("lazy pver" problem).

Why?:

Format needs to be constructed to be more casual... currently the format is highly focused on wins instead of participation.... People currently don't want to play unless they can win, because its not that HA is actually any fun... its about the rewards and titles in this format. People want to have absolute certainty that they can obtain those long long streaks.

Solution:

You can't make "lazy Pvers" find it less of a waste of time by simply telling them to get better... You can't make "elitists" stop stroking their ego long enough to take someone not experienced on the chance that they might fail them...

Solution needs to take away both reasoning's... there needs to be something to keep new players in the game even if there getting rolled to gain status... and less emphasis needs to be placed on wins so its not all that effective to wait for hours on the right person...

These are the problems that solutions should be focused on (not eliminating rank all together, or dividing a non-existent play population).... I listed an idea i think will work on page 2 of this thread and I think its fair to both groups... but nobody seems to have anything to say about solutions.

Fluffy Kittens · Jan 24, 2012, 09:53 AM // 09:53

My advice to you is: stop whining and get good

Missing HB · Jan 24, 2012, 10:17 AM // 10:17

@ 2 posts above : you both are wrong, i could say i'm r12 and i'm not finding team easily aswell.. ( i could also believe i'm terrible and only one in this situation, but this isn't the case unfortunately...)..

Rank discrimination is a small part of HA problems, but if the district is empty, high ranked players are on the same level as unranked players : they won't find anyone to play with them..
Many are suggesting to stop pugging, but this leaves you the problem of having opponents, which means you have to find 7 " friends" that will play with you on a busy hour, that's 2 conditions not really easy when you are not from those playtimes...

However , i noticed an interesting point that i agree with : " People currently don't want to play unless they can win, because its not that HA is actually any fun"

This is in fact the same problem in every format, due once again to the lack of players and pugging problem.. I'm convinced it's pointless playing in codex if it's about losing to the same guild team every 2 fights, because i have to play with the only players from the district and because there is noone else to face...

Considering there wasn't any single content update there, apart requiring more players to play a less active format, that's also about having players finding the game still fun( read : doing the same 24/7 and considering it fun), which means having an active friend list.. If you're in the same case as me, which means all friend list left months/years ago, i'm afraid you don't have much solutions for PvP..

Swingline · Jan 25, 2012, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

My advice to you is: stop whining and get good

Why do you just go and prove half the points in this thread right? Its like you can't even read...

L2 trol fagit

lursey · Jan 25, 2012, 10:45 AM // 10:45

another holy grail of mine to try to fix HA, and Anet can feel free to implement any suggestions of mine in this forum, if intellectual property is an issue.

give a rank to loser, we hereby called it LOSER 1-15, similar to rank 1-15 but to gain it you have to lose, like the fortunate and unfortunate title.

reasons:
1) HA requires winners, losers and players to operate properly
2) rank to loser will attract players to HA in order to achieve LOSER, which atm there is only award to winner
3) it is not an easy task to achieve high LOSER for players if both teams want to play to lose, for example they may have to compete to infuse and degen themselves to death, and also teams gain higher point to LOSER if the teams are in the deeper maps of HA just like rank, if teams lose in very early then the awarded points will be very low just to delay the effectiveness of bot losers, and discouraging early losers.
4) at HOH, players will supposedly play to win, because of RANK, the chest, and also will be awarded with LOSER if they are not competent to win.
5) easy to implement just to give a title without much coding or alternating map/skill structure of gw.

problem:
1) bot maybe too good to make themselves to become LOSER

Missing HB · Jan 25, 2012, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

another holy grail of mine to try to fix HA

give a rank to loser, we hereby called it LOSER 1-15, similar to rank 1-15 but to gain it you have to lose, like the fortunate and unfortunate title.

reasons:
1) HA requires winners, losers and players to operate properly
2) rank to loser will attract players to HA in order to achieve LOSER, which atm there is only award to winner
3) it is not an easy task to achieve high LOSER for players if both teams want to play to lose, for example they may have to compete to infuse and degen themselves to death, and also teams gain higher point to LOSER if the teams are in the deeper maps of HA just like rank, if teams lose in very early then the awarded points will be very low just to delay the effectiveness of bot losers.
4) at HOH, players will supposedly play to win, because of RANK, the chest, and also will be awarded with LOSER if they are not competent to win.
5) easy to implement just to give a title without much coding or alternating map/skill structure of gw.

problem:
1) bot maybe too good to make themselves to become LOSER

I might have not understood well your idea and i apologize if so, but doing red resign would profit to everyone since you would progress in a title track no ? Then you can see where this will go for a few time, until many people got their r6 Hero or their r3 Loser( which aren't especially long to get if you even get 20 pts per day...)

Besides, i think the point of your idea would be so that people know who is a " loser" , who is cheating etc... but people are already wearing bravely codex/commander 8 titles without much consequences( apart the few fair people who did get those high ranks in a fair way are getting trolled...)

I don't think it would be a useful solution anyway, because the number of abusers will probably be at least 5 times the number of fair players, and the format will turn into a huge mess..

lursey · Jan 25, 2012, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I might have not understood well your idea and i apologize if so, but doing red resign would profit to everyone since you would progress in a title track no ? Then you can see where this will go for a few time, until many people got their r6 Hero or their r3 Loser( which aren't especially long to get if you even get 20 pts per day...)

Besides, i think the point of your idea would be so that people know who is a " loser" , who is cheating etc... but people are already wearing bravely codex/commander 8 titles without much consequences( apart the few fair people who did get those high ranks in a fair way are getting trolled...)

I don't think it would be a useful solution anyway, because the number of abusers will probably be at least 5 times the number of fair players, and the format will turn into a huge mess..

it depends on whether players want to gain the RANK or LOSER title more.

because if rank becomes easier to achieve, more players will try to achieve rank, and play to win more.

floor · Jan 25, 2012, 01:13 PM // 13:13

The entire top tier of pvp players in guild wars, say the top 200 GvGers and a handful of other HA/RA players all know each other. We don't form pugs, we only group with people from our friends lists or other players that we know vaguely. For instance Lemming and Dark who have been posting here, I know who they are from within the PvP community so they are the sort of guys who i'd consider playing with. I NEVER pug anyone for either GvG or HA. Take friends or don't play.

Why can low tiered players not do the same? The problem you are crying about is being unable to participate, we play with our friends, why dont you play with yours? I am hoping you dont only care about winning and getting fame, really i do.

Ranks are just irelevant. GvG has actually always had a better system, because since the champ title has always been out of reach of most players, and generally considered worthless even by those who do have it, guilds/teams had to form based on friends lists alone in many cases, rank has never really been considered an important factor in group formation. The guild ladder was always a cool means of allowing people to be competitive with each other, without giving them any kind of direct reward/rank to show off. This encouraged players to play competitively but not for the rewards, because essentially there were none.

HA on the other hand has always just been a cess pool of title farmers, and they are not even good for the most part as a direct result on concentrating on fame, and not improving. Conversely the majority of the GvG population worked hard to improve their own skill level (b-spikers aside admittedly). The best HA teams have been trashed by the GvG teams who go to HoH since 2007 and before. The gulf in skill level is simply enormous.

So yeah, when people say play with ur friends, its not a joke, a troll, or elitism. Its genuine advice. We play with our friends, try playing with urs? If you want to play with us (read: the competitive PvP community) then make friends with us. To do that you would probably need to pm ppl you see on obs. What a suprise, the advice dark/lemming have been giving isnt a troll after all, its actually the truth! unbelievable i know!